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Sexing The Cherry

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Post by Litlove Sat Jan 31, 2009 8:29 am

Hello all! Welcome to the new forum, which I hope I am using correctly.... I'm sure it will become apparent soon if I'm not.

I must say I found Sexing The Cherry tremendously hard to write about. It's got so much in it for such a little book, and yet there's no simple plot to discuss or character development to consider. It's rangy and baggy and decidedly odd, even if also vivid and creative and funny. So as usual I just wittered on for absolutely ages, thinking I'd offer some background information and then ending up trying to do more with it, probably unwisely! I know from reading around the blogworld that people have very mixed feelings about the book. What did everyone else think?

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Post by Stefanie Sat Jan 31, 2009 8:52 am

Litlove, I think you wrote about the book just fine. It is hard to write about and I approached it from a single element because I couldn't possibly say anything coherent if I tried to include everything!

I liked the book very much in spite of its faults. It seems that Winterson was trying to make the book like one of Fortunata's dancers. She set it spinning and spinning until it began humming and shooting off sparks of light.
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Post by Rebecca H. Sat Jan 31, 2009 9:25 am

The new forum looks great! I haven't written my post yet (that's a job for this evening), but I thought I'd jump in here anyway ... thanks Litlove to leading us to this book! It certainly was an interesting read, although I was one of the ones who had mixed feelings about it. I'm afraid the post I end up writing will be mostly about my mixed response -- very much focused on me and not on the book. I can see why it's hard to write about. For me, what stands out are the ideas -- the characters are memorable, yes, but it seems more like a novel of ideas than of plot or character, ideas about identity and history and time.

Perhaps ultimately my problem with the book is that I associate it too closely with grad school and the academic study of postmodernism, and I find myself irritated by a book that seems written mostly in service of the ideas. But perhaps this is doing the book an injustice ...

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Post by Stefanie Sat Jan 31, 2009 3:24 pm

Dorothy, I am glad you like the forum Smile

I think you are right, the book is a novel of ideas and sometimes the characters and scenes are more in service to the ideas than to the integrity of the story or character. That was one of the things that sort of grated. I can see how you could associate this with grad school. It seems like it could be used as a sort of basic and easily accessible introduction to a study of postmodernism. That doesn't make it bad, but perhaps it reveals Winterson is trying too hard to make everything work the way she wants it to.
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Post by dsimpson Sat Jan 31, 2009 5:11 pm

I really enjoyed this, but there was a lot going on and even someone as unschooled as me could see she was trying to make points on a variety of topics. Still, on a purely 'reading for pleasure' level, I thought it was fun and entertaining. Whenever a book is labelled experimental I get a little nervous. I'm afraid I just won't get it (silly, I know), but once I got into the story (such that it was) I had no problems with it. In a way I was glad I don't have an English Lit background, so I could just enjoy it (and then learn more in the discussion we have after). The only thing that made me a little uncomfortable was the religious violence and the fact that some male characters didn't fare very well in the story. Are all her books like this?
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Post by iliana Sat Jan 31, 2009 5:56 pm

Hello Everyone and what a lovely forum we have!

Litlove I really enjoyed your summary on the Slaves Blog... Actually I've really enjoyed what everyone has posted so far.

It's interesting because I feel like we each touched upon different things about this book which to me speaks volumes of what the author was able to accomplish in such a slim novel.

I liked the book - I didn't love it and am actually still not sure why. Perhaps because it is just so different than anything I've read in a long while. It's one of those books that really shakes you out of the norm.
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Post by biblio brat Sat Jan 31, 2009 7:44 pm

[dances for joy]

I wish I could say it is for the book, but actually it is because I finally remembered my logon name and password. Hey, its the small things folks! Very Happy

As for the book, I have not finished it yet. Unfortunately, I stayed true to form by procrastinating until the last minute and then my cat got sick with an upper respiratory infection. Anyone who has or has had cats knows how upsetting this can be. Crying or Very sad

However, I have gotten about half way, and am trying very hard to keep an open mind as this is not like any book I've ever read.

I am enjoying it, but find I'm slowed down, continually hampered in reading this just for the pleasure of it by my tendency to think there is a deeper meaning woven within the narrative.

I just wish I could let go of that part of myself that has to constantly interpret everything I read, and for some reason, this book makes me feel like there is so much more to what you see on the surface.
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Post by Susan P Sat Jan 31, 2009 8:12 pm

Count me as one who felt inadequate in interpreting the text. I particularly liked the metaphysical musings, grew tired of the fantastical, and wondered if I ought to be focusing more on gender and sexuality.

(Does anyone else see my name underneath Stefanie's post? )

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Post by iliana Sat Jan 31, 2009 10:40 pm

Biblio Brat - hope your cat is doing better! I understand what you mean about trying to find deeper meanings thorughout the book. I felt that way as well.... Anyway, hope you'll enjoy the rest of it.

Susan - I don't see your name but when I'm logged in I see my name under Stefanie's post. How strange.

I think I did pay a bit more attention to the gender issues in this novel as opposed to anything else. I think what did it for me was the story of the princesses and how the men fared in those tales... I guess I thought about it more because most fairy tales that I can remember it's always about a prince rescuing a woman and every lives happy ever after. In these stories the women seemed to be just fine regardless of what happened to the men.
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Post by adevotedreader Sun Feb 01, 2009 2:33 am

I also find it hard to write about this book.

I enjoyed it, but as an interesting series of interlinked stories rather than a complete novel. The fantasy elements and humour were wonderful BUT I did find some of the supposedly profound insights into men, ecology etc wearisome. I was left feeling entertained but a bit bamboozled- what was the point of it all?

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Post by Rebecca H. Sun Feb 01, 2009 7:26 am

Danielle -- the other Winterson books I've read, with the exception of Oranges Are Not the Only Fruit (her first novel), are like this one, at least generally speaking. Certainly The Passion was like this one -- it was historical fiction, had fantastical elements, was idea-driven, etc. I can sometimes get nervous about experimental writing, but very often it's not difficult at all -- just different.

What's interesting to me is that if you state all the ideas Winterson is working with as statements, I'd agree with them all and be enthusiastically on board. I can buy the idea, for example, that our identity is shifting and uncertain and not pinned down to one form, or even one place and time, and that our experience of gender can be much more fluid and ambiguous than our culture would like it to be, and that our interpretations of history are just another form of fiction. But when these ideas are embodied in fiction, at least in this particular way, I balk. The tone can feel a little pious to me (which is interesting because Winterson was raised in a very strictly fundamentalist home and rebelled against that kind of piety).

I have to say, though, that in spite of my doubts about the book, the relationship between Dog-Woman and Jordan will probably stay with me for a while, as will everything about Dog-Woman herself. She's great.

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Post by Stefanie Sun Feb 01, 2009 9:45 am

Iliana, I liked the book a lot too but didn't love it either and have been trying to figure out why. I am currently thinking that it might be because the story gives the impression of being planned, that everything happened as Winterson wanted it to, there is no feeling of organic development.

I loved the humor provide by Dog Woman. She was so...large. I am going to have the image of the elephant sailing through the air in my head for awhile. I appreciated that she wasn't a big clown though, her love for Jordan made her human.
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Post by Litlove Sun Feb 01, 2009 10:47 am

I do like Jeanette Winterson, and I did enjoy the book, but I can quite see why it doesn't gel with everyone. I think Winterson is trying to do so much that the novel, despite its brevity, can feel lumpy, awkward, or pitted with holes. Nor do the characters develop as such - experience doesn't really change Jordan or the Dog Woman, because they are locked into their identities. Change in magic realism mostly takes place at the level of metamorphosis in the material world. Reality, as we know it, explodes into a parallel universe, precisely because the one we are in is too constrained to contain the new thought or emotion or concept. I think that's why magic realism works so well in countries that are politically in trouble - you can see why an alternative world is needed, and why it just isn't available. European magic realism tends to fall back on postmodernism as the basis of its playfulness, stretching the text's capacity to make sense. Winterson is trying to explode myths and concepts of gender that belong quite firmly to the eighties, I think, and that may well feel a little out of date now - things have moved fast in that area. I did feel that the sudden appearance of modern day Jordan and Dog Woman was an invention too far for me. Had Winterson stuck with the 17th century story it might have made for a fuller, more satisfying narrative. But hey, the book's the way it is.

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Post by Stefanie Sun Feb 01, 2009 11:37 am

One way of looking at the present day Jordan and Dog Woman is to see them as what is real and the 17th century story as what their imaginations created in order to "explode into a parrallel universe" as Litlove describes magic realism. The present day both were in certainly gave them reasons for wanting to escape. But I sort of like that it isn't clear what is real and what is not. I find the unmoored feel of the novel pleasurable, sort of like the butterflies you get in your stomach on a roller coaster.

I liked the little touch that Jordan's sections were headed by a pineapple and Dog Woman's by a banana.
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Post by dsimpson Sun Feb 01, 2009 11:52 am

Stefanie--I liked the banana and pineapple sections, too!

Dorothy--I'm not sure I'd want to read all her work, but I do have a couple of other books by her and wouldn't mind giving them a try at some point. And I probably make far too fuss about experimental literature.

It would be interesting to know more about Winterson and find out why she chooses to write like this. I wonder who her inspirations are. I think it was Susan who mentioned/wondered about reading STC when she hadn't read any Angela Carter or Woolf's Orlando (I haven't either, with the exception of a few stories by Angela Carter, which I liked as well). Would I have gotten more out of the book if I had?

I'm a very visual person--I learn better by seeing and I love seeing what happens in a book in my mind (maybe why I read so slow as I'm acting it out in my mind), so it's interesting that she not only had such strong images but also so many ideas (which I guess I did less with).

I did find this:

http://www.jeanettewinterson.com/pages/content/index.asp?PageID=14

where she writes about her book. It looks like she's finished writing about the past.
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Post by Rebecca H. Sun Feb 01, 2009 4:35 pm

Litlove -- I find your explanation of magical realism very useful, particularly in the way it changes once it's out of its original context. Even if I don't necessarily love magical realism on the simple level of enjoyment, I definitely appreciate the political point it's making. On a conceptual level at least, I like the idea that an experimental text can help us think about the world in a different way.

Stefanie -- I don't like roller coasters, so now I know why I'm not fond of this book -- it's because I don't like that butterfly feeling! Smile

I think I'd prefer to believe that the 17C versions of the characters are "real" rather than creations of their 20C versions, if only because I think it's a cruel trick to create characters and then show they aren't real (or "real"). I think Susan mentioned the possibility that there is transmigration of souls going on here, and I like that idea. Maybe I'm being inconsistent, but that bit of fantasy appeals to me (of course if you believe in reincarnation, then it's not really a fantasy ...)

Danielle -- all I know about Winterson is that Woolf is definitely an inspiration, but I don't think you need to read Woolf to get Winterson. (Hmmm ... I've read one Carter novel and didn't love it, which seems about right -- it fits the pattern here, except that I love Woolf). Knowing Woolf might add another layer of meaning, but Winterson stands on her own.

Thanks for the link!

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Post by dark orpheus Mon Feb 02, 2009 11:47 am

Hi Everyone,

It's been a while since I last read Sexing the Cherry. But reading all the thoughts on the book made me want to join in. Jean Pierre and I were chatting about the book a while back, and I wrote this:

One of the reasons I had so much trouble with “Sexing” was all the little narratives imbedded within the larger storyline of the Dog Woman and Jordan. I keep trying to make sense of them, how the stories within the Story relate to each other. I think I drove myself crazy.

But the dual realities - it’s almost like they are incarnations of their earlier selves with their unresolved issues.

When I first read that “Sexing” was a riff on Eliot’s “Four Quartets”, I tried to read the poem as a primer to understanding “Sexing.” These lines, I felt, describes the feel of “Sexing” most eloquently:

“Time present and time past
Are both perhaps present in time future,
And time future contained in time past.
If all time is eternally present
All time is unredeemable.
What might have been is an abstractin
Remaining a perpetual possibility
Only in a world of speculation
What might have been and what has been
Point to one end, which is always present.
Footfalls echo in the memory
Down the passage which we did not take
Towards the door we never opened”
~ ‘Burnt Norton’, Four Quartets

Maybe it’s about possibilities, and how time and love re-enact itself in different ways. Time overlaps, swims into each other. Jordan - the name of a river, but all river is in flux, and it all comes together in a greater cosmic cycle.

Sometimes I imagine “Sexing the Cherry” as a string of pearls, all the multiple stories/naaratives the beads - all tied together loosely through a Super-Narrative of the Dog Woman and Jordan. And like all loops, we come back to the beginning, from another angle. “Sexing the Cherry” is a patchwork of all the different narratives. Maybe it’s just meant to be enjoyed in its episodic form.

Hence, my take: Step back, enjoy the language.


I still don't understand the book. I don't love it, but there are some moments where the writing just runs away with you.

PS: The reference to "Four Quartets"and "Sexing the Cherry" came from Winterson's "Art Objects" (if I remember correctly). In one of her essays, she wrote that a young man approached her at a signing. He asked if "Sexing the Cherry" was a re-writing of the "Four Quartets". Winterson replied, "Yes."

And the young man kissed her.

True or not, it just feels like a great story to share. Smile

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Post by Stefanie Mon Feb 02, 2009 6:00 pm

Danielle, thanks for the link. I found it interesting that Winterson insists the book is not magical realism when it so clearly fits into that description.

Dark Orpheus, thanks for sharing your discussion and the information about Four Quartets. I can see from what you quoted how the two relate. It is very interesting. And true or not, what a funny story about the man kissing her!
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Post by Litlove Tue Feb 03, 2009 2:38 pm

How interesting to read Jeanette Winterson on the novel - thank you for the link, Danielle. In some ways I wasn't surprised she refused the magic realism label (doesn't mean her narrative isn't related to the genre) but I was intrigued to read that the dancing princesses are integral to understanding the book. Now that, I just couldn't figure out. Can anyone else see the links to which she is referring?

And I didn't know it had anything to do with Eliot either - the part of the poem that Dark Orpheus posts is very helpful, though.

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Post by Rebecca H. Tue Feb 03, 2009 4:56 pm

I think it's probably best not to listen to authors when they say things about how to interpret their work! I mean, it seems to me that her work is related to magical realism, just as you say Litlove, whether she agrees or not Smile

I'm stumped by the comment about the dancing princesses too. She talks about their being "as many narratives as there are guesses" when it comes to understanding the past -- maybe she is playing with the possibilities of narrative with the princesses? Seeing how many variants of a similar story she can come up with? She's rewriting an old fairy tale -- maybe she is showing how we can see the past differently, both by rewriting the princess fairy tale and by giving her own version of 17C England.

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Post by biblio brat Tue Feb 03, 2009 5:11 pm

In terms of what Dorothy W. asked I am wondering if since the concept of time and of reality seems to be a theme of this book, that the stories of the dancing princesses are the author exploring the different 'realities' than can happen as each action taken has many paths that can be taken. If there exists alternate realities then she may be exploring the different ways a single scenario could have played out.

What made me think of this is in the beginning of the book it talks about the Hopi language which does not have separate tenses to denote time and the note on how matter is mostly empty space.

If we do not have time to consider and empty space to fill, what are the possibilities available to us?

Again, I tend to delve deeply, perhaps too deeply when reading works such as this. So take me and my thoughts with a grain of salt. Very Happy
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Post by Stefanie Tue Feb 03, 2009 8:04 pm

I was trying to figure out her dancing princesses comment too. Dorothy and Biblio Brat, I think you both have shed some good light on it. I think perhaps the stories show possiblities like you both suggest, they also take part in the idea of memory and how we see the past and whether or not it is true. We have the tale as we know it and then we have the alternative tales that defy space and time. Which ones are true? Did tings happen the way we think they did or as the princesses tell them or something else?
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Post by iliana Tue Feb 03, 2009 8:28 pm

That was an interesting article. The Twelve Dancing Princesses was my favorite part of the story actually. Not that I know what Winterson was trying to achieve there but for me it is about appropriating the fairy tales to meet our modern standards.

In fairy tales often the young woman only lives happily ever after once she’s rescued by a prince but here these princesses didn’t depend on a prince for their happiness. Plus, they got a chance to tell us their version so we get the female perspective. I like that.
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